[Updated: scroll down to the bottom.]

Oh, how nice….I was so busy answering Nine Deuce’s inquiry that I glossed over the rest of her essay….and it’s even more loaded and leading of the question than the questions:

Where are the men who want to argue vociferously for women’s “right” to participate in their own exploitation? Where are the men clambering to convince me that (women) getting naked for money is empowering? Where are all the dudes who want to tell me that feminism is about “choice” and that women who are making the “choice” to suck a bunch of dicks for money are leading the charge toward some future utopia in which women will be safe, free, and human? Not many of these men exist, because most men know that they’d have a hard time keeping a straight face while making such claims. So why are women making the claim for them?

Of course, all this is just a figment of ND’s vivid imagination, since no prominent sex-pozzie male has ever, at least as far as i have seen, ever claimed the universal that sex work is innately “empowering” to all women (other than those women who have testified personally that it was empowering for them….but you know that their voices don’t count in the minds of radicalfemiinists like ND); or that there is anything “utopian” about “making the ‘choice’ to suck a bunch of dicks for money”. And of course, the idea that women can’t speak for themselves (at least, not the women who don’t think like Nine Deuce and Heart(less) and Maggie Hays and Witchy-Woo) but need men to carry their water, tends not to get through the microcode implants in their brains.

But even that does not compare to the greatest weapon that ND brandishes in her assault on pro-pornie men…..namely, this cartoon:

Uh-huh. Nothing says “exploitation” quite like gawking, leering men staring down a scantily-clad woman.

Except, ND…that it isn’t quite exploitation if the woman actually likes it. Or the guys actually respect her. And they are willing to tip her graciously. (Yes, ND, she’s the one getting paid, and they’re doing the paying. So, who’s exploiting who here???)

But, it’s the racial mixture of the gawking men that should really squick everyone here: does Nine Deuce really understand how depicting men of color as mouth-dripping, sex-obsessed adolescents just might feed into charges of racism???

Errrrr…..just sayin’.

Update: Get a load of how Nine Deuce attempts to dismiss criticism of using this cartoon:

“I think the picture is of a bunch of old white dudes that are outside the reach of the spotlight. If the artist intended them to look like men of color, I’m not backing that, but I doubt it. In any case, with regard to the post it’s a tertiary issue at best. Back to the point.”

Oh, really??? Well, bless her heart…..or, to be more accurate, BULLSHIT.

Notice, for example, the guy at the forefront who’s staring directly at the stripper’s ass. Looks Black to me….or else that must be one powerless spotlight.

Or…the two men standing next to the man who’s talking about “Enough exploitiation, let’s have the empowerment!!!” Most definitely Black…especially the bald-headed one.

But, of course, all of that is merely tertiary to the main point of…what?? That sex-positive men only want to get into women’s panties?? That their respect for women who perform sex acts on stage or screen (or even those who simply strip in night clubs) are simply “Freedom to Rape With Impunity” cards to assault women with?? That we all are simply Ted Bundys in training??

How very antiracist of you, Nine Deuce….I see that Jon Justice isn’t the only one needing a trip on the Klew Train.

Update #2: Leave it to Amber Rhea to bring down the bolt of truth onto such haters:

Yes, no surprise, shit like this and this (check the comment from “L”) downright enrages me. And even that word, I think, does not do justice to the pure RAGE I feel when I see people DENYING MY AGENCY AS A HUMAN BEING, denying my very existence, denying that I am an intelligent, capable, self-aware woman who is CONSTANTLY examining and reflecting on my own life and the choices I make. It hurts the most when it comes from other women, in particular other feminists.

[...]

It enrages me, and it makes me feel sick, and sad, and just awful about humanity, actually. Because why is it such a difficult concept to convey, that my life is mine, my choices are mine, and just because they differ from yours that does not mean I’m damaged or stupid? Why is it so hard to see that accepting the same old stereotypes of women who are openly sexual (not to mention women who work in the sex industry!) as stupid or damaged or victims or villains is nothing more than some seriously OLD-SCHOOL PATRIARCHAL BULLSHIT? It HURTS to have that same old double standard inflicted on me by other women, by other FEMINISTS.

This post gets the “hypocrisy” tag because, as I said to Elisa the other night, that’s what it is, plain and simple.

Pole dancing, for example? The smug characterizations of it as “empowerful” or “degrading” and whatever other bullshit so-called feminist bloggers (not to even mention non-feminists, especially anti-feminist men; holy shit, I can’t even go there, I would get damn near suicidal) say about it, talking OUT OF THEIR ASSES, assuming I must be doing it for my boyfriend (!!!!!!) or whatever else… holy fucking shit I cannot take it anymore. But guess what I DO know, assholes? That when I’m pole dancing, I feel joyful and whole, I feel a happiness that I rarely feel at any other time that permeates my entire being, I feel ALIVE - and the last thing on my mind is what “Teh Menz” might be thinking (especially because nine times out of ten, there AREN’T ANY MEN PRESENT anyway).

And Amber’s not even a paid sex worker….just a civilian who does pole dancing for the sheer fun. Is she one of the “exploited”, too, ND???

This is getting dangerously close to a “Kiss my ass” moment, so I will stop here.

Update 8-4-08:

Well, now….seems that Nine Deuce has decided to take down the pic from her blog, claiming that she doesn’t want the allegations of racism to distract from the point about the “subjugation” of stripping that she was attempting to make. There’s an extended exchange in the thread between ND and Bint Alshamsa (of My Private Casbah), with the usual drive-by smack from the GenderBorg Peanut Gallery (mostly Gayle), where they hash out the debate on racism.

But never fear…seems like Heart(less) and Witchy-Woo have now taken up ND’s slack in full defense of the pic….and especially get a load of what Witchy did to attempt to counter the racism charge: (this captured and smacked down so well by Caroline over at Uncool):

Yup…..that clears it up real good. No racism at all. Nothing to see here, just move along, losers.

Hey, Witchy…..I really do hate to break this to you, my lady (actually, I don’t), but you do know that brightening up a pic via Photoshop or The Gimp does not eliminate differences in flesh tones, right??? Problem is, even with “the spotlight” turned on as you attempt to do, you can still see the Black faces staring at the dancer…thusly, the pic can still be perceived as promoting the usual racist stereotypes of oversexed, drooling, raging hormonal Black men targeting dimwitted, bubbleheaded slutty White women for abuse and rape.

Oh…and the insulting way you put quotes on the dancer isn’t too bright and progressive, either….just ask some actual dancers on that one.

Tags: more radfem whackiness

Never say that I’m not hip to answering a challenge.

Since Nine Deuce asked so politely, and Witchy-Woo laid down the gauntlet so forcefully (now, I can’t speak for Jack Goff or IACB, only for myself), I will do my best to answer all of ND’s questions about how we sex-pozzie men aren’t the ogre rapists and demonizers that she and W-W think we are.

Let’s go by the numbers, shall we??

1)  Do you believe that women would participate in sex work if we did not live in an oppressive, misogynistic culture? If so, what would the sex industry look like in a world in which women were seen as possessing the same humanity men do?

Probably, yes…because I believe that misogyny is not just an element of porn but endemic in the entire culture; thusly, a more democratic and egalitarian culture that distributed wealth and resources more equally would allow women more freedom of choice and thought…and more access to safer and more sane sex work and media. And with better rules and regulations to ensure the safety and consensuality of client and worker alike, and the more corrosive puritan attitudes transformed and vetted, sex work would become itself more sane and safe. It won’t be perfect, since there will always be assholes who will attempt to push themselves and their myopias onto both workers and clients, but at least it will be so much easier to isolate and contain them from the general population.

2)  Do you believe that pornography and prostitution negatively affect some women’s lives (obviously some sex workers suffer abuse, but I am referring to women outside the sex industry here)? If not, why not? If so, does any of the responsibility for that lie with sex workers, or does it lie solely with the producers and pimps? Or somewhere else?

When it is enfused with sex negative and antiegalitarian values?? Sure, porn and prostitution can indeed negatively affect the lives of outsiders.  BUT…so can so many other factors, such as income levels, socioeconomics, race, access to basic human resources.  The difference between we sex-poz radicals (both men and women) and the antiporn “feminists” is in how we would resolve such inequities.  They favor censorship and imposition of a narrowly based sexually conservative vision on everyone; we favor greater access to more choices and developing safer environments for such choices.

3)  Why aren’t there more men out there arguing for women’s “right” to participate in sex work? What do you make of the fact that very few men call sex work a feminist choice? I’d also be happy to discuss the arguments of men who do make such a claim.

Gee, ND, I thought that men were universally FOR women’s “right” to participate in their own subjugation?? Doesn’t that kinda make your argument kinda moot???

And I thought that feminism was a women’s movement that didn’t concern itself with what men thought about them???

But to answer your question more directly: Because a great deal of men have inoculated themselves with the dominant cultural beliefs about sexuality being redeemed only through “intimacy” and procreation through marriage?? Even though they tend to violate these vows with regularity??

4)  Can women like Jenna Jameson can be considered feminists for taking leadership roles in the production of pornography? Why or why not? If the answer is yes, how can we reconcile the negative effects pornography has on women’s lives with referring to a producer of mainstream pornography as a feminist?

Well….I don’t see Jenna calling herself a feminist, any more than Carly Fiona or Whitney Houston or Cindy McCain calling themselves “feminists”. But considering how successful she has been in her profession, whether she calls herself a feminist or not, she is still a woman deserving of respect and admiration for her success and her leadership.

Now…I would consider someone like…say, Nina Hartley, definitely a feminist, and definitely a leader in revolutionizing the production of porn and sexuality. Her legacy of bringing progressive values (not only feminist, but also anti-racist and anti-ageist and pro-pleasure) simply can’t be dismissed as readily….and as to “negative effects on women’s lives”: well, we’ll have to just agree to disagree on that.

5) How can sex work empower individual women when it requires that women submit to being objectified and performing acts for money rather than out of genuine desire to do them?

Well….people are “objectified” every day to do things that they normally wouldn’t do for the paycheck…and they do learn much from the experience that they can use later on in their lives. And who says that the women don’t already enjoy those acts they get paid to do in their private lives for free?? And as Nina has said consistently, sexual objectification isn’t always that bad in itself.

6)  Alternatively, if one genuinely enjoys something and gets paid for it, does it become a feminist act?In other words, does feminism exist to advance the cause of women as a whole or for individual women to use as a justification for their personal choices?

It depends on how you describe “feminism” to be, ND. If feminism is defined as to maximize the humanity of women to equal that assumed of men and enlarge the choices and resources that women should have, then I guess that doing something that you love and getting paid well for it would count as being the ultimate goal of “feminism”. But then again, I’m a man, and I don’t feel myself suited to define what a movement of women should be like; that should be up to women themselves. I tend to judge political movements by their actions, not by their labels or gender…or their private sexual practices.

7) If sex work is a valid, feminist choice, what are we to make of women who say that their participation in sex work resulted from dire poverty, drug addiction, etc.?

I have a novel idea: ATTACK THE POVERTY AND THE DRUG ADDICTION AND THE CONDITIONS THAT CAUSED SUCH, NOT THE OCCUPATION. Why should sex work have to be the scapegoat for problems that are so much more universal??

8)  I see sex work as a reductionist commodification of human sexuality. Do you think that the reduction of sex to a commodity has a negative effect on our ability to explore and express the potential of human sexuality? If not, why not?

Well….since I don’t quite see sexuality as you do, ND, I’ll just have to pass on that loaded question.  And EVERYTHING in capitalism is commodified; that’s capitalism’s nature. Of course, if you believe that “the potential of human sexuality” can be best realized by neutering, slut-shaming, and badgering women into submitting into your particular narrow view of sexuality, then be my guest.

9)  If you’re a sex-positive dude, tell me why. Why are you in such a huff to help women out? And why does it manifest as sex positivism? Why is your desire to help women out limited to arguing for their “right” to serve you sexually?

Ahh, yes…the most loaded question of all for last: the old “You evol ’sex pozzie men’ just wanna get into our freakin’ panties!!!” meme.

Now, ND….if I was in fact capable of meeting Renegade Evolution or Nina Hartley or Vicky Vette or Bridgett Lee or whomever sexy and intelligent woman I currently admire and respect, do you really think that I wouldn’t be in the least interested in jumping their bones??  But there is a distinct reason why I wouldn’t do such: BECAUSE I RESPECT THEM AS FULL HUMAN BEINGS.  First off, they are already taken. Secondly, they have the right of first refusal…remember that old meme “NO means NO!!!”  (Now, if they came to me and specifically wanted me to get it on with them, then that’s a different question altogether…but my stated principle is that unless they say yes, just assume NO. Not “Not now,” not “Maybe later”…but “NO.”

Trust me on this, ND…..sex isn’t much fun or pleasurable to me if the person on the other end isn’t enjoying herself as much.  That’s the fundamental difference between a genuinely sex-positive male and a boorish, MRA-ish lout who really doesn’t give a Hoover Damn how the woman feels. It’s not about a woman’s “‘right’ to serve me sexually”; it’s about her right to serve HERSELF sexually…and if she prefers to serve herself with one man or the entire roster of the New York Giants team; or one woman, or the entire Los Angeles Sparks women’s pro basketball team, or just by herself with her favorite toy…then that’s all right by me.

The only means in which such a woman “serves” me is that she is an active participant in her own pursuit of safe and consensual pleasure…and that she is open and honest and willing to share that pleasure with others.  That, in the end, is what turns me on, gets me off, and earns my respect.

And no, ND…I don’t have to want to have sex with a woman to respect her for her humanity.  I was brought to this earth by a woman; was raised by a woman, have bosses and supervisors who happen to be women, and look up to and admire several women whom I have no intentions of ever having sex with. There are more than enough willing sexual subjects who celebrate my sexual desire for them willingly to satisfy me. (Even if only in fantasy.)

Hopefully, that fulfills my end of the challenge…probably not enough to change ND’s opinion of us sex-poz men (and definitely not enough for Witchy to lay off the claws….but then again, I don’t blog to please them in the first place.

Tags: antiporn feminism, Raging sex-pozzie men